Curse

Yuhe Ji · Apr 04, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

/notsigned
I think that rangers should keep their versatility. Nerfing expertise would be nerfing the ranger profession as a whole. Many people make rangers because they can do so many different things as a ranger. If thumpers or R/D Escape scythes are overpowered, then they would be nerfed, but not the expertise line as a whole.

Kyrein · Apr 04, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Actually, no. I'm saying it's degenerate, because Rangers weren't ment to do that role.

Warriors were ment to run around smacking stuff with a Hammer, rip things to shreads with Swords and Axes.

Dervish's were supposed to go around swinging a Scythe.

Rangers are ment to disrupt and create havok on the enemies side of things by developing strong pressure via conditions, and have survivability for splitting abilities.

Degenerate as in not ment for that role --

Like Bloodspike. Necro's were mainly designed as a Shutdown / Support profession, just like Mesmer and Ranger. Bloodspike comes along, and there's your degenerate spike.

Like Enchanter's Conundrum -> Shatter Delusions spike. Mesmers weren't ment to spike. They were ment to create havok on the enemies side of things like a Ranger does but in a different manner.

If I have to go through with this any more I can only say this -- you are extremely stubborn.

basically what you are saying is that using secondary professions is bad

and that rangers MUST use bows and MUST spam conditions and MUST have self heal/blocking

and necros MUST be shutdown and support because they have skills that do that!

do an IQ test and tell me the result truthfully

Skyy High · Apr 04, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Actually, no. I'm saying it's degenerate, because Rangers weren't ment to do that role.

Warriors were ment to run around smacking stuff with a Hammer, rip things to shreads with Swords and Axes.

Dervish's were supposed to go around swinging a Scythe.

Rangers are ment to disrupt and create havok on the enemies side of things by developing strong pressure via conditions, and have survivability for splitting abilities.

Degenerate as in not ment for that role --

Like Bloodspike. Necro's were mainly designed as a Shutdown / Support profession, just like Mesmer and Ranger. Bloodspike comes along, and there's your degenerate spike.

Like Enchanter's Conundrum -> Shatter Delusions spike. Mesmers weren't ment to spike. They were ment to create havok on the enemies side of things like a Ranger does but in a different manner.

If I have to go through with this any more I can only say this -- you are extremely stubborn.

Considering they redid the wording of expertise to specifically state what it affected, I think your idea of what rangers are "supposed" to be able to do is wrong.

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He implied that the design of expertise was originally for ranger's usages only as their skills are grossly overcost. And that design has nothing to do with other professions' skills.

1)The reason why ranger skills are overcost is expertise.

2)The reason why other professions' skills are expensive is the power of those skills. They are expensive because and only because their effects are powerful.

Obviously, those are 2 different things. Now if you mix 1 and 2, you will get powerful skills with very low cost which would make those originally fine skills become overpowered.
Therefore, the design of expertise now is not good for the game. Surely, you can nerf a couple of skills, but in the ling run, nothing would stop the abuse of expertise.

There was no implying of any sort in that quote. If that's what he meant to say, he should come out and say it, because you can't simply go from, "Expertise is bad because all ranger skills have to be balanced around a 40% energy reduction" to, "Rangers break every other skill in the game because of their damage reduction." It's not like other classes don't have their own sources of energy management, which while not as good as a ranger's, is more than made up for by runes and other abilities granted by being a primary x. A R/A can do an expensive attack chain, but it'll be weak, and the primary sin can do the same thing just as well with crit strikes. A R/P can spam attack skills with reckless abandon, but since when has a paragon cared about energy with adrenaline shouts and leadership? A R/W can spam energy attacks as much as he wants, but a primary warrior gets a better attack boost (without using the elite and a 3rd att line for a pet), hits harder, and can do the same or better job with mainly adrenaline skills.

Bottom line, the ranger doesn't "break" anything with expertise. The only thing wrong with expertise is that the ranger is basically dependent on it, and basically all x/r builds are trashy because ranger skills are so overpriced. The uses of a secondary are simply different ways of running that profession, which I still can't see anything inherently wrong with. The only trouble with it right now is sway, and I'm sorry but there's a better way to nerf that than nuking every r/x build because you guys seem to think for some strange reason that they're not "supposed" to be like that. Well, they are, the description even says so.

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

I'm glad we should be taking narrow minded advice like yours and not try to push forward with gameplay, or are overly used stereotypes suddenly a good thing? Anet gave us the ability to use secondaries for a reason, why do you want to completely trash this idea? Why are you the one to say what a profession should and should not do?
I agree with a nerf to R/D's because they are overpowered (just like Enchanter's Conundrum spike), not because they don't fit the role I feel a ranger should play. To do so is completely uncalled for, and, like I stated before, extreamely narrow minded.

Narrow minded? I'm against degenerate builds. Yeah, they gave us secondary professions for a reason, but that reason was NOT to misguide the role set for you on that profession. Rangers were never made to smash stuff with Hammers or swing Scythes round.
It might seem narrow minded to you. But you're playing a secondary like a primary anyway, that's not synergy, thats misguiding a role set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyrein

basically what you are saying is that using secondary professions is bad

and that rangers MUST use bows and MUST spam conditions and MUST have self heal/blocking

and necros MUST be shutdown and support because they have skills that do that!

do an IQ test and tell me the result truthfully

Blood Magic is a Necromancer attribute. Nothing to do with secondaries, and Bloodspike is a degenerate build misguiding the role a Necro should be taking.

If you read, I was using Bloodspike and EC -> SD spike. Both of them are in one profession, Necro and Mesmer. Nothing to do with secondaries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Considering they redid the wording of expertise to specifically state what it affected, I think your idea of what rangers are "supposed" to be able to do is wrong.

So you're saying I should delete my Warrior and turn my Ranger into my Warrior?
Take a look at skills like Cripshot, Apply Poison, Melandru's Arrows, Poison Arrow and the list goes on and on. D-Shot, Magebane, Punishing Shot...

This is abusing the primary attribute as a whole. In many different ways. Abuse shouldn't be tolerated to start with.

Moloch Vein · Apr 04, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Like Bloodspike. Necro's were mainly designed as a Shutdown / Support profession, just like Mesmer and Ranger. Bloodspike comes along, and there's your degenerate spike.

To be honest, R/W thumpers and R/N touchers are far more degenerate than Bloodspike teams, in a sense. Last I heard, necromancers were supposed to be able to steal health...

Yuhe Ji · Apr 04, 2008, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Rangers were never made to smash stuff with Hammers or swing Scythes round.

Actually, I believe that they were. I think that the developers designed the rangers to be a jack-of-all-trades that could do a little bit of everything. When I think of a ranger, I don't always think of them carrying a bow. A ranger is typically a soldier that is adapted for guerrilla warfare. Therefore, I believe that the GW rangers should be allowed to use more than just bows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

This is abusing the primary attribute as a whole. In many different ways. Abuse shouldn't be tolerated to start with.

You could argue that soul reaping is be abused. Look at the N/Rt healers! The mesmer fast casting attribute can be abused to nuke using slower casting ele spells.

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

To be honest, R/W thumpers and R/N touchers are far more degenerate than Bloodspike teams, in a sense. Last I heard, necromancers were supposed to be able to steal health...

Blood should of been more of a support line anyway.
Things like Order of Pain and Dark Fury come to mind.
Stealing health for benefit to your party members might sound quite nice...

But still, Necromancers should be less of the damage and more of the shutdown / support mixture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuhe Ji

Actually, I believe that they were. I think that the developers designed the rangers to be a jack-of-all-trades that could do a little bit of everything. When I think of a ranger, I don't always think of them carrying a bow. A ranger is typically a soldier that is adapted for guerrilla warfare. Therefore, I believe that the GW rangers should be allowed to use more than just bows.

Then why didn't Rangers get their own melee weapon mastery, hmm?

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You could argue that soul reaping is be abused. Look at the N/Rt healers! The mesmer fast casting attribute can be abused to nuke using slower casting ele spells.

I wouldn't be bothered in the least if Soul Reaping got nerfed. Really, the enemy AI exploits itself with Soul Reaping in PvE for being so gullable and weak in the first place.

And Fast Casting Nukers, wouldn't mind seeing them get hit aswell. More gimmicky crap killed. And in all honesty, runes with a 40/40 set are really much better...

RedNova88 · Apr 04, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Expertise is fine, I don't mind seeing any of the examples given of how the attribute is supposedly abused, unless it's Touch Rangers... But hey, everyone hates Touch Rangers... Well, unless they're on your team.

shru · Apr 04, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Then why didn't Rangers get their own melee weapon mastery, hmm?

Because Anet introduced a little thing called secondaries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I wouldn't be bothered in the least if Soul Reaping got nerfed. Really, the enemy AI exploits itself with Soul Reaping in PvE for being so gullable and weak in the first place.

The Soul Reaping abuse has been in HA for ages. N/RT's have been abused to hell and back since the days of spirit way, all the way to today's Sway, and you're saying it only effects PvE?

Yuhe Ji · Apr 04, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Then why didn't Rangers get their own melee weapon mastery, hmm?

That would mean more work for ANet. I didn't say that rangers should get their own melee mastery. I said that they should be able to use the masteries that other melee professions use. Versatility doesn't mean the profession should get a line for everything. I thought ANet did a very good job creating expertise to make rangers the way they are.

Skyy High · Apr 04, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Then why didn't Rangers get their own melee weapon mastery, hmm?

Because they can use other professions'. As intended. Durrr?

Stop with the "rangers were never meant to do x" crap. ANet clearly defined what they are "meant to do" when they changed up expertise, made it so only ranger stances get the bonus, yet touch skills and ALL attack skills from ALL professions were accepted. You are wrong, and that's all there is to it; you're making up an idea of what rangers "should" be that has no basis in anything outside of your head. You can't give a definition for what a "degenerate" build is, because you just subjectively make it up yourself.

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So you're saying I should delete my Warrior and turn my Ranger into my Warrior?

Er..no. Because, you see, they are different. A r/w will never take the place of a warrior, just as a r/d will never take the place of a dervish (whoever said that, I have to rofl loud and hard at you; a dervish without mysticism for AoM, yeah, that's worth it).

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Take a look at skills like Cripshot, Apply Poison, Melandru's Arrows, Poison Arrow and the list goes on and on. D-Shot, Magebane, Punishing Shot...

How about all the traps? Guess we have to nerf trappers too, since they use staffs; rangers must use bows to spread their conditions and interrupts, according to you. What about the entire beastmastery line? Is the Enraged Lunge beastmaster a degenerate build too, since it also uses a staff, and it doesn't spread conditions, just does big chunks of damage?

I could similarly point to all of the dagger attacks, and conclude that assassins are "supposed" to only use daggers...yet the Deadly Arts line exists, and is capable of complete attack chains all on its own, using only spells. Yet unlinked Melee Attacks (not dagger attacks) exist in the Crit Strikes attribute (as well as in warrior and dervish attributes) specifically so that we can use them with different weapons equally effectively. These things are in the game because, no, the classes are not "meant" to be stuck in one tight niche, and indeed are allowed to do, even encouraged to do, whatever they want. Some combos aren't as effective as others, but there has historically been no restriction on what you can do with a secondary, for good reason.

The ability of rangers to use secondary attack skills was deliberately affirmed by ANet. By any rational definition, they are "supposed" to be able to use them.

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Because Anet introduced a little thing called secondaries.

Yeah, and there are primaries too, which should be played the way the primary was made in the first place. Secondary professions should only synergise smoothly while keeping that playstyle of the primary in check.

Quote:

The Soul Reaping abuse has been in HA for ages. N/RT's have been abused to hell and back since the days of spirit way, all the way to today's Sway, and you're saying it only effects PvE?

I'm talking about today. It only really effects PvE these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Because they can use other professions'. As intended. Durrr?

Stop with the "rangers were never meant to do x" crap. ANet clearly defined what they are "meant to do" when they changed up expertise, made it so only ranger stances get the bonus, yet touch skills and ALL attack skills from ALL professions were accepted. You are wrong, and that's all there is to it; you're making up an idea of what rangers "should" be that has no basis in anything outside of your head. You can't give a definition for what a "degenerate" build is, because you just subjectively make it up yourself.

Actually, no I'm not wrong about the defenition of what a degenerate build.
You're defending the abuse of a secondary profession virtually becoming the primary profession. Rangers, again were not meant to be for damage.

If Rangers were meant for damage, why not just scrap Warriors, Dervs and 'Sins and put all their weapon masteries on the Ranger?

Quote:

Er..no. Because, you see, they are different. A r/w will never take the place of a warrior, just as a r/d will never take the place of a dervish (whoever said that, I have to rofl loud and hard at you; a dervish without mysticism for AoM, yeah, that's worth it).

The playstyle is the same in essence.
And if you really believe that Dervs will do better anyway (which they should.) why will it effect you?
Getting rid of degenerate builds stops stagnant gameplay and gets rid of the people who can't play the profession as it was intended from creation.

Quote:

How about all the traps? Guess we have to nerf trappers too, since they use staffs; rangers must use bows to spread their conditions and interrupts, according to you. What about the entire beastmastery line? Is the Enraged Lunge beastmaster a degenerate build too, since it also uses a scythe, and it doesn't spread conditions, just does big chunks of damage?

Enraged Lunge Beastmaster using a Scythe? How bad...

Anyway, Staves are ran on Trappers because of the higher energy. I never said once that bows NEED to be used for spreading conditions. And Trapping isn't really degenerate. It brings in condition pressure (Which the Ranger should be performing anyway, not using a secondary as a primary) and utilates fieldplay to restrict places to move unless they trigger the traps.

Quote:

I could similarly point to all of the dagger attacks, and conclude that assassins are "supposed" to only use daggers...yet the Deadly Arts line exists, and is capable of complete attack chains all on its own, using only spells. Yet unlinked Melee Attacks (not dagger attacks) exist in the Crit Strikes attribute (as well as in warrior and dervish attributes) specifically so that we can use them with different weapons equally effectively. These things are in the game because, no, the classes are not "meant" to be stuck in one tight niche, and indeed are allowed to do, even encouraged to do, whatever they want. Some combos aren't as effective as others, but there has historically been no restriction on what you can do with a secondary, for good reason.

That's simply bad design. Whichever dev that came up with making these skills and letting the secondary professions get abused is beyond stupid.

And the Deadly Arts line should of been a support line, like Blood Magic.

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 04, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

-4% for Ranger skills, -2% else

When a hammer ranger puts out more pressure than a hammer warrior, there's a problem. (etc.)

Kyrein · Apr 04, 2008, 04:36 AM // 04:36

i have an idea! everybody stop feeding the troll and just sit back and laugh at it in the comfort of your chair.

and a /lock would be nice, this is just a flamefest now

shru · Apr 04, 2008, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Yeah, and there are primaries too, which should be played the way the primary was made in the first place. Secondary professions should only synergise smoothly while keeping that playstyle of the primary in check.

Again, more of your "I think Ranger should only...". Can you not see how biased your comments are? It's sickening

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I'm talking about today. It only really effects PvE these days.

Tell that to half the teams in HA these days that have an entire or partial N/RT backline (most of them happen to be the same gimmicks you're currently slandering, even though you pass the N/RT off as PvE only.)

shru · Apr 04, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

-4% for Ranger skills, -2% else

When a hammer ranger puts out more pressure than a hammer warrior, there's a problem. (etc.)

Maybe a Warrior should try using a 33% unstripable IAS/Speed buff (Rampage as One), an on call daze (Bestial mauling), and extra damage added in seperate packets (pet).....none of those are expertise linked, idk why you want to change expertise to fix thumpers that only use one warrior skill that requires energy (crushing blow).......

And wasn't a thread exactly like this locked a day ago? Why is this even up?

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Again, more of your "I think Ranger should only...". Can you not see how biased your comments are? It's sickening

I'll say it again. Using your secondary as a primary is degenerate.

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Tell that to half the teams in HA these days that have an entire or partial N/RT backline (most of them happen to be the same gimmicks you're currently slandering, even though you pass the N/RT off as PvE only.)

That's because things still die in HA. Like any other place. Not to mention the runes actually have little effect on the skills.

Quote:

Maybe a Warrior should try using a 33% unstripable IAS/Speed buff (Rampage as One), an on call daze (Bestial mauling), and extra damage added in seperate packets (pet).....none of those are expertise linked, idk why you want to change expertise to fix thumpers that only use one warrior skill that requires energy (crushing blow).......

Agreed here. Only fix to RaO would be disabling all non-Ranger skills though.

And by the way, my comments aren't really very biased...I would like to see all degenerate builds die, which is what alot of people are hoping for.

Yuhe Ji · Apr 04, 2008, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I'll say it again. Using your secondary as a primary is degenerate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I would like to see all degenerate builds die, which is what alot of people are hoping for.

What makes the builds degenerate other than the fact that you think that rangers shouldn't be playing a certain role? The way you're talking, it's starting to sound like all cookie cutter builds are degenerate, because someone else found it out and the user is simply copying what the original person did. If you want that changed, I don't have a problem with it, but ANet won't be able to change up the skills every once in a while just to destroy the builds you call "degenerate."

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuhe Ji

What makes the builds degenerate other than the fact that you think that rangers shouldn't be playing a certain role? The way you're talking, it's starting to sound like all cookie cutter builds are degenerate, because someone else found it out and the user is simply copying what the original person did.

Eh? If I wanted to see things die in melee positioning, I would want to see a Dervish, Warrior or 'Sin using the roles set for them.

Put it this way -- One does not play a Ranger to go in melee and make things go boom. One plays Ranger to piss people off in the other team. If one wanted to go in melee, one should play a Warrior, Dervish or 'Sin and use the weapons that are provided.

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If you want that changed, I don't have a problem with it, but ANet won't be able to change up the skills every once in a while just to destroy the builds you call "degenerate."

By changing this primary attribute, it will kill the majority of them.

Infact, I don't even know why I'm still arguing.
I've proven more than needed enough times, and I misunderstand why these degenerate builds deserve to stay (Which they should apparently).
If you're defending these builds because they show up the versatility in a Ranger, you're wrong about the versatile part. It's mainly 1-dimensional skillsets as easy to play as 'Sins 12345678 builds.

Which is also degenerate play. It doesn't only rely on the playstyle as intended, but the skill required to actually run the build. Which is most of the time, none in degenerate builds.

shru · Apr 04, 2008, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Eh? If I wanted to see things die in melee positioning, I would want to see a Dervish, Warrior or 'Sin using the roles set for them.

Put it this way -- One does not play a Ranger to go in melee and make things go boom. One plays Ranger to piss people off in the other team. If one wanted to go in melee, one should play a Warrior, Dervish or 'Sin and use the weapons that are provided.

You've posted this exact thing time and time again over the last two pages......do you not understand what we're trying to tell you?
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK A PROFESSION SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT DO. ANET GAVE US SECONDARIES, I THINK THEY HAD THE INTENTION OF US USING THEM.
/end rant

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

By changing this primary attribute, it will kill the majority of them.

And I've already pointed out in several of my posts that expertise is not the culprit to a majority of these so called "degenerate builds". An expertise nerf would only effectively remove touch rangers, nothing else worth playing depends so much on the attribute. (yes escapeway would take a hit, but they'd still survive due to the imbaness of scythes, rending touch, and escape.)